Critiquing the Critique Sites
Posting photos online for critiques and comments can be a joy for some, a torment for others.
Another way of looking at it would be to say that it’s useful for many and an obsession for even more.
For me, at various stages through last year, it’s been all four of these things. It started as a joy, quickly became a torment, then as I started to understand things better it most likely flirted with obsession for a short period of time. Now however, it’s become a simple but regular part of my daily online activities and is genuinely useful. An improved insight into your own work and others – these are the rewards if you take the feedback from critique sites and put it into the right context.
The three sites which I regularly contribute to are:
This is a quick summary of all three, and what participating means to me.
Pbase
(my site on Pbase can be found here)
Pbase was not the first place I posted an image online to – that dubious honour went to photo.net. What is was though, was the first place I became a regular at and began investing in the community. Pbase has the following things going for it:
- Many good photographers. A few great ones.
- A great feature called “Favourite photographers” which is a link on your profile which allows you to keep tabs on the latest images of your favourite photographers
- Full resolution uploads (i.e. it doesn’t resize your photos – can display them at their natural resolution – in my case a preferred size of 800 x 533 pixels).
- A Comment summary which shows all the latest comments you receive
- Has great layout options such as allowing advanced HTML to make your galleries look great (or simple), and also has a nice tree structure allowing your gallery “Portraits” (for example) to contain another series of sub galleries (e.g. “Kids”, “Pets”, “Models”, etc). In my opinion it’s still the best community site to showcase a portfolio
- A simple to use UI (User Interface)
- A simple voting system
These things make it a great community site and that’s what I use it for primarily.
Comments / feedback on pbase tend to be encouraging but “gentle”. It’s pretty rare to get negatively critiqued and therefore is a great site for encouragement. But unless you go specifically asking for it, you aren’t going to get many in depth reviews about what you could do to improve your image. So this is a double edged sword of the encouragement but like many things, if you work at it – you can find a good balance of the two.
It also lacks some features which would make it much better. For one, a good mechanism for rating / rating pictures. You can be told your photo is “good”, but how good exactly is that? Is it a 10/10 good, an 8/10 or a 5/10 good? Introducing ratings (which some other sites do) is a great way of forcing both the reviewer and the reviewed to look at their work in a quantitative fashion. Now, Pbase does have a voting system which allows you to cumulate votes over time but it can be haphazard and you never know how many you receive. If you do get a lot however you can end up in the Popular galleries / photos section which is useful in helping discover talent. Having said that many correctly suspect that it can in some cases (but not all obviously) be as much a popularity contest as a photo contest. I’ve been fortunate to regularly end up on the front page of “Popular Galleries” for some of my work although I’ll let others be the judge of whether that place is deserved as a result of the community I am a part of, or the images that I create.
All in all tho, Pbase is a great site with a wonderful accepting community and it’s where I spend the majority of my time commenting / uploading to.
Photo.net
(my site on photo.net can be found here)
Photo.net is an interesting place. It’s generally considered to be site which has the highest number of quality images. One look through its Top Photos gives significant credibility to that claim as you’ll see quickly some of the most stunning photography you’ll care to lay eyes on. Photo.net has the following main features:
- It’s based on a rating system. When you submit a photo for review, community members can vote on your image with two criteria in mind – Aesthetics and Originality. Both are marked out of 7 with 5 /7 being good, 6 / 7 being very good and 7 / 7 being excellent
- It drives lots of traffic and a lot of people browse and rate. Unlike many sites (e.g. Pbase), when you submit an image for critique / comment, you do not need to be well known to get a dozen or so people rank and rate your image. If it gets a high average, it’ll appear in the Top Photos which will in turn mean more people get to see your image
- The critiques are far more… critical. It’s not uncommon for someone to take your image, modify it and reupload it for you to show how they would improve it. Or to tell you in very clear terms why they didn’t like what you did. Depending on your personality and what you’re looking for, this is either a good thing or a bad thing
- Great statistical rankings. In Top Photos, there are dozens’ of ways to view the highest ranked photos (e.g. by Average, by Views, by Originality, by Category, etc)
As a quick aside, I’ve mentioned rankings a couple of times here and the reason for that isn’t because I consider photography or these sites to be a competition, or that I have an inherent need to be told a good photo is good. It’s more to do with the issue I raised earlier about forcing me to look at my work quantitatively. It’s also due to the fact that when someone else has produced a good photo, I think it’s great that it is seen by as many people as possible. The easiest way to achieve that goal is to have a reward system which ranks good photos near the top somehow. So I’m all for things which help showcase good work when it’s done well – as these are the pictures that I learn the most from.
OK so back to Photo.net… so it’s great for rating and getting rated, but what’s wrong with it? Well, the community is quite set in its ways as a whole. So while I’m generalizing here of course but a picture typically has to be “technically correct” for it to do well (which means sharp, in focus, etc). Photos that don’t follow this path are usually marked down – often quite severely. The same goes for photos which require too much effort to interpret. So if an image is pretty, or clever (but not too clever), it’ll usually rate pretty well.
And what’s high? Well 5.0 / 7 for originality and / or aesthetics is doing well. There are many great photos on there with this ranking and it’s a score to be pleased with in most cases. Going up a bit, 5.5 / 7 usually means you’re doing great – a photo that would impress all but the harshest critics. 6.0 / 7 is a stunning pic in most cases – capable of being a finalist or winner of a competition on many other sites. For those of you who know or rate my photography – and to put the ratings into context, I have around 10 pictures in my portfolio which average around the 6.0 mark or slightly below.
Of course, it goes higher too – there are 6.5’s / 7 – this is reserved for a specific style of photography I am not sure I’ll ever be able to (or maybe will ever want to) reach.
Of course, as objective as it supposed to be – the ranking system is not always accurate. There is talk of “bots” (software programs) which deliberately rank down other photos. Also there are photographers who “swap” votes with each other, ensuring their pictures remain with as high a rating as possible.
So the solution, like with Pbase, is to use Photo.net for what it is useful for – that is, getting interesting critiques you won’t always find elsewhere, getting quantitative feedback which is always useful and perhaps most importantly, learning what it is about a certain type of audience that makes it tick. Understanding why one photo excelled while another bombed – I think these are vital lessons in the feedback process. As I said before too – their “top photos” section is also the best place to quickly see a distilled version of the most technically impressive photography on the Internet.
Alt Photos
(my Alt Photos site can be found here)
A friend of mine introduced me to Alt photos and it’s been perhaps the most interesting of all critique sites. As the name suggests, the photography here is meant to be a little alternative. Glamour shots, pictures of pretty flowers, landscapes with sunsets – these are all photos you can expect to be ignored. Instead, images which carry meaning, dark or melancholy scenes, alternative / experimental portraits and contemporary art all do exceptionally well. The site layout is very simple and like photos.net, their feedback / ranking system relies heavily on quantitative feedback. It works like this, you upload a photo and check it for review and it gets placed in the Most recent pictures. There, people view it and if they like it, they give it 3 points (there are also 1 and 2 points they can give but no one does this). It becomes a binary choice – someone likes your photo, you get three, someone doesn’t like it – they just move on. Critiques are allowed but pretty rare and hardly ever detailed.
Instead it’s a simple system of feedback that actually works very well.
So if 15 or 20 people have rated your image you’re on a points score of above 50 which means your photo is likely to be on the top 50 or so for that day. Get a score about 100 and you’re probably in the top 10 for that day and on the front page for that week. The significance of this? Well, it means your photo is up there with probably the most creative work I (and many others) have ever seen online. Unlike photo.net, it’s not always the most technically perfect from a classical standpoint – but it’s very likely to be thought provoking, original and quite brilliant also. I am fairly new to Alt Photos but again, to put things in perspective for those of you who know my work, I have a dozen or so photos over 50, with my highest score being 99.
Alt photos is probably the place I spend the most time browsing the top galleries for inspiration.
Other sites
Other sites of note which I’ve tried at some point are:
- www.dpchallenge.com – DPC is known for its weekly challenges. I encourage anyone whose not seen this site to go check it out. It’s been quite a while since I’ve posted anything there as each month that goes by I find myself to be moving further and further away from the style it prefers but there’s some great quality work on there and the weekly theme idea is excellent
- www.flickr.com – I know a lot of people rate it but I could never get on well with flickr. Maybe it’s the massive amount of traffic it does that means you have to invest so much time in their groups or communities. I’m prepared to be proved wrong tho if someone is prepared to write up the reasons why Flicrk rocks in a comment below
- www.fotologue.jp – Check this out if you haven’t. Not necessarily the best site for rating / communities / critiques but it produces some of the best looking portfolios. I should spend more time there
OK so that’s about all I have to say on this topic for now. I have always wanted to share this information as I feel I have got so much out of the rapid feedback cycle that critique sites can provide and hopefully you’ll find this of some use too. Finally, as I mentioned before, like any kind of feedback – the trick is to put feedback in the right context and perspective, something I’m still always trying to perfect :)
(No Ratings Yet)
Loading ...
I'm really impressed with the wide range of your activities – posting on several photosites, writing a blog, also comment extensively (not just "beautiful" or "great") on other photographers work. I myself am struggling to keep my pbase site updated regularly and to view/comment on others.
Found this artcle particularly interesting, as I have not gone much beyond pbase so far. Actually, I opend a trial account on flickr a few months ago (http://www.flickr.com/photos/29296700@N00/) but as you write, it is quite cumbersome, timeconsuming, and it does not give you many possibilities to create a personal style. So I limited myself to a few Vienna-shots there…. What I like about flickr though, is that there are many young photographers (at pbase, I with my 40+ years am certainly in the "younger" age bracket), some of whom have really good ideas. I basically also like the groups, i.e. that you can post images to certain topics together with other photographers. But on the other hand, the groups system is of course part of the problem.
Might try one of the other sites you introduced – if I only had more time to do so!
Excellent review. Pbase is definitely my primary site, but I have a blog at aminus3, a personal site (portal really), and a flickr account (that I don't use much). Photo.net and Alt Photo sound very intriguing. I'm definitely going to check them out. Like Eckhart said, it all boils down to time. Thanks again for sharing such great information.
Wow…I can't believe I read the whole thing! In this day of quick soundbites, rarely do I read an entire page of text online. Great synopsis of the three sites.
In my own jaded way, I have opinions on the three sites. Here they are:
1) Pbase: a popularity contests where nudity and trolling for votes wins out over talent 2/3 of the time. Thankfully, the talent still posts there in the midst of all this superficiality.
2) Photo.net: A place where someone who shoots absolute shit photos can rate an accomplished photographer's work as "average". However, the nudes are better than pbase. ;-)
3) Altphotos: Absolute heaven for the anti-cliché photographer. The closest thing to a meritocracy of artistic criticism I have found yet.
I am a contributor to all three sites. I love and hate the first two at the same time. I've never hated altphotos. It's definitely my favorite.
Nice follow-up by Chuck and I agree that the critique by Lawrence was one of those rare online "page" turners. I just signed up for photo.net and altphotos. I'll give them a try and see what happens. If anyone has any tips regarding posting to these sites please let me know. Thanks.
Opened an account at fotologue.jp, but the fact that the whole site is programmed in Flash makes it agonizingly slow (as compared to a HTML-based site), and it also does not really work well with both Firefox and Safari, the two browsers I normally use. I like many of the photographs presented there very much, though – very Japanses in a way…
Thanks for that, Lawrence but Chuck's pithy summary made me laugh out loud. Pbase is going from bad to worse: one rarely sees worthy, original material in the popular galleries now and the vote trolling is contemptible. From the sounds of it, I might be a lot happier at Alt. My pbase account expires next month. May make it my last.
Just posted my first three photos on altphotos. Excellent site. Probably the most creative, cutting edge photography I've seen anywhere online. I'm really going to enjoy it. It won't replace Pbase as my main gallery, but will serve as a place to view inspirational photography and upload some of my more edgy material.
A really interesting read with some valuable info…and thanks for the links. Altphotos certainly does look like a great place to browse; the front page alone has some stunning photos on it and no doubt there is plenty more hidden away in the depths of the site.
I don't think any photo site with any kind of rating/critique/community behind it is going to be able to suit everyone's requirements perfectly, but then I've only ever used Pbase and I've dabbled with Flickr, so I'm merely speculating.
The standard argument with PBase is that it's cheap and it can look good as a showcase for your photos if you want it to. I think about the amount of time I spend on it and the pleasure I've had from discovering some people's work and I'd have been happy to pay way more if it had been necessary. You may be able to learn more in a shorter space of time elsewhere, but I doubt it'd be as much fun. Who knows though?
But, yeah, agree with anyone that says it does have its faults. Commenting is a double-edged sword I keep managing to impale myself with. I find myself inspired by some images to write something about them (that I at least think's interesting), but I do find myself prostituting words like "cool abstract" etc. all over the place. Probably should start writing "shit abstract" on random photos for a month or two just to balance out the praising heh heh.
(Or, more simply, cutting down and saving it for the photos that matter.)
A yes/no system would be interesting to try though for a while.
Anyway, I have a flickr account just so I can use http://www.yesterdayslife.com/photofront – I saw Jude's and thought it looked superb for a freebie showcaser. Thought that deserved a mention here. But really, Flickr: What's 'tagging' your photos all about? Ridiculous website.
Just found the following interesting link on a PBase forum, right in between the "SHOW US YOUR RABBITS" and "POST SOMETHING MAUVE" threads…
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/From-the-Big-House.shtml
Some points worth considering in relation to critique sites.
I've been on pbase for almost 3 years, not sure why I'm still there except I like the look of my galleries. It loads up faster than any other site I'm on since I'm unfortunately still on dial up (nothing else available in my area).
I joined photo.net a while back and I either do SPLENDID or suck the big one.. I'm not into the critique so I pretty much stopped posting there.
I joined Altphotos about 3 months ago after Lawrence told me about it. I have to say that Alt and Flickr suit my style best. VERY artsy.. very unusual.. and I love the work on Alt very much. Unfortunately (again) it loads sooooooooo slowly because of dial up I dont' bother unless I'm somewhere that I can access cable.
Onto Flickr (yeah, I'm quitting a few of these.. I was "finding" myself and trying to leave pbase).. I like Flickr but it took me about 6 months to do so. It is a community based placed but it is harder to find that community.
I'm not interested in community. I will say the best thing about Flickr beside the fantastic array of talent there (talent which pbase doesn't even come close to) is the fact that I can go weeks and weeks without commenting on people's work, yet I get comments all the time. It loads slow so I find it hard to comment.. I tend to "favorite" photos instead.
I know.. i rambled.. so what? :P
Great discussion – voted!
Lawrence, youre aware of my thoughts on this topic (as do Jude and Chuck)and it's good to hear others' views.
Dpchallenge and photo.net are pure pain and Chucks words are so true here and certainly raised a chuckle.
I do have a free account with flickr and there is much higher quality posted there than pbase but I rarely post. I think it was something to do with the layout.
There is also deviant art, which is just far too 'fields of the nephelim' for my tastes although there is some marvellous stuff there amongst all the fantasy landscapes of Zordoz and all those partially clad elven types.
I've just paid for another year on pbase which didnt break the bank and my mum likes lookin at my pictures there. The layout is good and clear and there are is still some interesting work being posted.
Alt art is one I'll definately have to check out.
Well … I've been involved with both photonet and altphotos for about 1 month now. My thoughts. At first … I enjoyed altphotos quite a bit. Very funky images that fit my personal style very well. However, I'm beginning to think "what's the point of this site." OK … you get some images that get 50-100 points, but in the end what does it mean? One or two of my images made it into the top 5 for that day … but what does it mean? Nobody gives any feedback and I have noticed vote swapping going on. I love looking at a lot of the images running through the system, but I'm beginning to lose interest in posting my images.
As for photonet … the experience has been the reverse. At first I wasn't thrilled with the format, etc. Now I'm beginning to enjoy it because the feedback is much more precise and useful. Also, the quality of some of the photographers is very high level and it is nice to get positive comments from such proficient and creative artists. I haven't gotten into the site deep enough to say how much vote and comment swapping is going on, but for now it isn't noticeable to me.
Thanks for an interesting article, written in some depth. I've become more and more interested in the need for genuine photo criticism on the web, especially with the current 5 second bubblegum click type of culture that doesn't encourage us to stop, think and talk about photographs
Great article Lawrence. There are so many options out there, and while I'm aware of the three you reviewed I have only spent considerable time at altphotos.net, which in my opinion is a fabulous site with a lot of extremely good photography. I don't think their commenting is that good, but the images themselves are fabulous.
I started out posting on http://www.fredmiranda.com. There's a lot of good stuff on there, but also a lot of rubbish, which makes it pretty time consuming. I don't post there anymore, prefering to devote my energy to my own blogs and reading and looking at other's individual blogs.
I have an article on my own blog about Flickr, a website I really think is the pits. I'm quite happy to be wrong in this, but my time spent there made me shiver. Talk about poularity contest…
Anyway, good reviews Lawrence, and I second altphotos as a place for great photography. But personally I don't like their system of commenting, as I prefer a more personal indepth review of a shot than a simple 2 or 3 star rating.
Leave your response!
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Stay Connected
Tags
Twitter Feed
Recent Comments
Archives
Admin
Best of the Best
Most Commented